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01.24.03 - 12:52 p.m.

a whole bag of ramble

The Unfit for Society recs LJ has been updated with 16 stories in 7 fandoms.

(As an aside, still jonesing for good Luke/Lorelai, so if you know of any, *please* leave a comment or drop me a line with linkage.)

and

The We Invented the Remix...Redux Participants List was updated late last night.

Currently, we're at sixty-nine people.

Come on, folks. I need an even number, so everybody's matched up right and tight and I don't have to write two stories. *g*

You have until Monday. All fandoms (except RPF) welcome. Bring your friends if you wirte in a small/rare fandom so you have someone to match up with.

You know you want to.

***

WARNING: POSSIBLE RotK SPOILERS for those who HAVE NOT READ THE BOOKS!!!

In response to yesterday's long thing on Elves and sex and such (which didn't get much of a response ::pout::), Naomi writes
The Rings of Power are largely the Elves' fault, too. Elrond is conveniently overlooking a lot in the movies, and very foolishly so.

*nods*

Elrond could have tackled Isildur and tossed him into the fire at Mount Doom. It would have been a horrific choice, but he could have made it.

Tolkien's Theoden had better sense than to lead the noncombatants toward the line of battle along with the army; the only women and children stuck in Helm's Deep were "three parts of the folk of Westfold," down in the caves. We do have a mention that most of the Westfold men in Helm's Deep are either too old or too young to be prime warrior material.

*nods*

My recollection of the battle is faint, except for the fact that Hama didn't die so early on, and that Eowyn is left as regent because the men trust the House of Eorl.

So it sounds as though women are only expected to fight defensively, but there's awareness that they can fight (why else does Theoden give Eowyn a sword and coat of mail when he makes her his regent?).

*nods*

In the book it's very much Aragorn who's all, "There, there, you're a woman, stay home and tend your men." I looked it up last night. *Of course* she rides out as Dernhelm. He should have known human nature better than to expect that she'd stay home once he gave her the romantic brushoff.

But PJ et al. definitely humanized/softened Aragorn, and to great effect in the movie, I thought.

In the movie, it's not the treatment of Eowyn that bothers me -- I do believe she'd see it as her duty to lead the women and children away even though she could stay and fight.

It's the fact that they armed 10-12 year old boys and old men while there were a couple hundred able-bodied adult women who could have strapped on a sword and shield and helped even out the numbers slightly.

A similar scenario plays out in Minas Tirith -- all the women are sent away well in advance, with only a handful of boys sticking around to run messages and women working at the House of Healing.

*nods*

It's a very compartmentalized society, even in the slightly modernized movie version - even amongst the Elves, it seems the women go off to the Grey Havens to take ship to Valinor while the men come to fight.

Tolkien was capable of imagining intersting women - Galadriel, Eowyn, Elwing and a few others did lots of interesting and cool stuff - but it seems to me that he couldn't actually figure out how to write them and integrate them into his worldview, so their deeds are always ancillary and happen off-screen, so he doesn't have to describe them.

Of course, I'm sure there's a couple things in The Silmarillion that prove me wrong, but I'm only at the point where Morgoth is all jealous of the Silmarils and I don't recall much of the book from the first time I read it, except that Glorfindel fights a Balrog and falls to his death, even though he then appears in FotR.

What's really annoying is that the women (except for Lobelia!) don't fight back in the Shire.

They don't? I don't recall the Scouring very well, as it's one of my least favorite parts of the book.

That surprises me. I would have thought the hobbit women very fierce.

Huh.

In related LotR news, last night I got the check that my stupid insurance company sent to my doctor instead of me, so I actually have some money to put toward bills and also purchase some things to feed my obsession...

a bunch of Sharpe dvds.

sigh.

Sean Bean...

mmm...

Plus, I made a couple of Legolas icons:

ruffle my feathers+can and will kick your ass+
though the first and last seem darker/less clear on this PC than on my laptop. Hmm...

and this Eowyn one:

Though I need more Eowyn pics, and I want to iconize a couple of these, and also Grima's little speech to her.

Such a fucking great speech:

Who knows what you have spoken to the darkness, alone, in the bitter watches of the night, when all your life seems to shrink, the walls of your bower closing in about you, a hutch to trammel some wild thing in? So fair, yet so cold like a morning of pale Spring still clinging to Winter.

Sigh.

Movie!Faramir better redeem himself damn quick to be worthy of her, or I may decide that she should just shack up with Merry and Pippin.

Alas! That Boromir died. The Sean Bean version would be more than a match for Eowyn.

And those are words I never thought I'd utter. *snicker*

Gotta go out into the cold in a bit, to purchase some Brooklyn Dodgers memorabilia for MS's retirement gift. Who knew Johnny Podres was the 1955 WS MVP? I didn't.

Sigh.

Later, taters.

~victoria



link

[current mood: scattered]
[current music: we all live in a yellow submarine]
[random quote: a yellow submarine, a yellow submarine]

~*~

01.23.03 - 1:55 p.m.

Legolas and Aragorn would be about love and fellowship and really good orgasms.

I don't know if people like to read about the writing process, the troubles someone has while writing a story, etc. Sometimes I don't like reading about an author's struggles, at least, not until after I've read the work in question. And sometimes after I've read what the author has to say, it ... changes the work for me. I don't like to let it, but ...

It's one thing when you're reading someone's diary ::coughJenncough:: and they go on about a character and how much they don't like him or her etc. I can separate that out from the work of fiction, as long as the author can (by which I mean that while a writer may dislike a certain character, the reader wouldn’t be able to figure that out without being told, just from reading the author’s work. I’m talking about bashing now, within stories – character assassination and such).

And most good writers can.

No, I'm talking about specific discussion of the writing process and the choices made for a particular story.

I'm going to do that now, in regard to She Follows, so if you don't like that sort of thing... ttfn!

There's also some sex talk, but nothing more than usual.

Also, ****SPOILERS FOR LotR *including* RotK (the books and the movies)****

So don't come crying to me if I mention something you didn't know.

So, I walked out of The Two Towers with swirling Legolas/Aragorn thoughts (which FotR did not inspire at all), as well as serious Aragorn/Éowyn thoughts, which I never would have entertained at all except 1. Faux!Faramir doesn't deserve a kickass chick like Éowyn, 2. Arwen and Aragorn broke up and she was leaving for Valinor (which didn't happen in the books) and 3. they had chemistry, and it wasn't forced (me, I didn't get the Arwen/Aragorn from either movie, but she's so... ethereal that it's hard to see them as lovers, imo. Plus, Liv Tyler. Only good in That Thing You Do, and even then mostly carried along by Tom Everett Scott’s charm).

And then there was the Best. Line. Ever: "You're late. You look terrible." Accompanied by the returning of the Evenstar and much manly, meaningful shoulder squeezing.

And Legolas is so pretty and Aragorn so hot and, well... slash reared its ugly head.

And then we were talking over in my LJ about how pretty Aragorn/Legolas/Éowyn would be, and Voleuse mentioned she'd like to read that and... well, we all know how easily suggestible I am, right? *g*

So I start writing.

And I run up against numerous issues I didn't even realize I had.

Firstly - Elves having sex.

In canon, they don't, much. I mean, obviously they procreate, but they live a really, really long time, as in forever, so they can't procreate a lot because... well, they'd overrun the place, right?

And they have higher things on their minds, like hair care and singing.

Anyhow, canonically, not big with the sex drive, and the interspecies Elf/Man thing tends to have tragic results.

But all of that, I managed to overcome, because Legolas/Aragorn = pretty. And they've obviously known each other a long time, have fought together, are good friends etc. etc.

And I had no trouble with coming up with an undercurrent of illicit sexuality amongst the Rohirrim, and Éowyn being more aware of stuff than you'd think. “Pure and chaste” and “barbarian horselords” don't exactly go together. I mean, I can believe that the Rohirrim are buggering each other without a problem, and that Éowyn knows this and has been kissed a time or two (and well, if you want to read Éomer/Éowyn subtext into the fic, you can. It's sorta there), and since Aragorn and Éowyn have chemistry, and Movie!Faramir is a putz, I have no problem with Éowyn/Aragorn.

Legolas/Éowyn is more difficult, because they don't interact at all, but eh, pretty man, pretty woman... I could have managed it.

But you put them all together and there were ... Reservations.

Numerous ones.

Because I cannot see Legolas-in-love-with-Aragorn inviting a third person into the clinch. Can't see it. He's not that sociable or proactive.

Then there's the actual sex part...

I have a kink for threesomes, specifically m/m/f threesomes*. In fact, other than some appreciation of fine leather, I'd say this is probably my only real kink as a writer.

And yet, I couldn't imagine making the sex raunchy, or even really explicit. I couldn't see Éowyn on her knees, giving Legolas a blowjob while Aragorn fucks her from behind.

::wince::

Even writing that sentence makes me cringe. So you can imagine how reluctant I was to actually write a scene where that happens.**

Then I thought, well, Legolas probably wants nothing to do with the icky girl parts anyway, so he can fuck Aragorn while Aragorn's shagging Éowyn.

And while I have somewhat fewer icky feelings about writing that sentence, I just...

Legolas wouldn't *do* that.

And here is where my second reservation comes in.

It's about hierarchy.

I'm not saying Legolas wouldn't pitch or Aragorn ever catch. I rarely think in those terms when I write slash. It's not about tops and bottoms and such, though it can be about power and dominance (see Logan/Scott, except that I think Logan *would* let Scott fuck him, in certain circumstances).

But between Legolas and Aragorn, it wouldn't be. It would be about love and fellowship and really good orgasms.

And I just can't imagine Legolas putting himself above Aragorn in this situation. I mean, and this is definitely *my* interpretation, but … it seems to me that Legolas would defer to Aragorn and well, there's nothing deferential about buggering someone, you know?

It's definitely the dominant position.***

Because let’s face it, if he wanted, I’m sure Legolas could kick Aragorn’s ass from the Bay of Belfalas to the Lonely Mountain, you know? He’s a couple thousand years old most likely and Aragorn’s what? Ninety? Plus super elf speed and endurance and... when did this degenerate into Aragorn v. Legolas: Steel Cage Match?

Ahem.

So yeah, I couldn’t see Legolas putting Aragorn in a seemingly submissive posture, not the first time they let someone new into their bed, and definitely not when Aragorn is trying to prove himself as a leader of Men.

So *that* scenario/positioning was out.

Then I thought about oral sex and both guys (‘guys’ being pan-species for male *g*) going down on Éowyn, and yeah, okay, if they knew each other better.

I know it’s incredibly weird to think that it’s fine (fictionally speaking) for a woman to fuck two men she barely knows, but only in certain positions because others are too intimate or speak to knowledge of the other parties involved that wouldn’t be present on a short acquaintance, but that’s what my gut tells me.

Which left me with the double penetration or the frottage option.

Which leads to Reservation Number Three: Anal Sex and Women

Now, I have yet to meet a woman who likes anal sex. No one I know personally, when the topic comes up in discussion, likes it. We all agree it’s about letting the guy be dominant and doing what he wants (and let’s not even get into the issue of how it’s not any tighter once you get past the entrance and in fact, I’m told it’s *looser*, so *that* excuse is out the door as bullshit and... ahem. I’m trying not to stray over into TMI, so let’s stop there *g*)

Sure, there may be women out there who like it. Just no one of my acquaintance and well, I tend to trust personal anecdotal experience from people I know instead of random ‘you know, women do enjoy that.’

So if you are a woman who enjoys it, please don’t let me know. I don’t really *want* to know, except in the broadest, statistical sense, you know?

So I had this reservation, because I’d never written m/f anal sex before. I wasn’t sure how to make it work without a lot of “I’m your backdoor man” banter and an already comfortable loving relationship between the people involved, because it’s not exactly something you leap into the first time you sleep with someone, you know?

Or maybe *you* do, but in Vic-world, that’s not how it works.

Now, a subissue here is the frottage issue.

See, too many years riding the Pervert Train (aka the 6) means that I associate frottage with skeevy old winos rubbing up against me and various other comely and nubile young women on the subway, rather than a hot sex act between two people who at least have a passing acquaintance, both with each other and with general personal hygiene (though that last may remove Aragorn from this category. ::snerk:: I need Legolas/Aragorn bathing fic. Need it. Don’t make me write it myself.)

(This is the main reason I haven’t done the Rub ‘til It Bleeds challenge.)

So I did not really want to associate pretty, clean, dead-fucking-sexy Legolas with old winos on the subway, you know?

And DP in fiction is kinda hot, but still, not the kinda thing you do on a first date, or first shag in the normal course of things.

::snicker::

Then, not a Reservation so much as a Plot Issue (if one can have Plot Issues in PWP) is the fact that there isn’t a whole lot of time for this to happen. When Aragorn comes back, it’s still daylight. The orcs will arrive at nightfall. Legolas and Aragorn have their little scene, Éowyn sees and turns away. Then Aragorn tells Théoden what he’s seen.

I think the next scene we get at Helm’s Deep is the Aragorn/Legolas spat.

I suppose I could have made it make-up sex, but then I don’t think they’d have invited Éowyn in.

And if Legolas didn’t have damned super Elf senses, I could have left it as voyeurism, which also appealed. I could probably still write a Legolas/Aragorn make-up sex between the spat and the arming where Legolas apologizes (“There is nothing to forgive... because you give great head.” Er, maybe not), with Éowyn looking on somehow.

Anyway, I had to work with all these reservations I had about the whole idea.

Because it’s easy enough to write a PWP about three hot people and not care. But to make it a good *story*, it has to have some sort of internal logic to it, and it has to be in character. And the only way to make this threesome work is to have

1. Éowyn willing to accept that this is a one-time only thing, and accepting Aragorn’s word that Arwen is gone from Middle-earth

2. Aragorn in a desperate/fearful/anxious enough mood over the approaching Uruk-hai army to treat her like this, and/or

3. Aragorn viewing her as a soldier/comrade-in-arms for long enough for the sex to take place (as I said to Pete, there are no straight men in foxholes. *G* I’m totally going with the “we’re at war, we’re gonna die, why *wouldn’t* we take comfort and orgasms wherever we can get them” theory.), but then reverting back to seeing her as a woman-who-must-be-protected immediately afterward (though he is not the one who sends her down to stay with the women. I really do believe she feels it’s her duty to lead them while the men are away. After all, in the books, she’s the one the men want in charge when Théoden asks who should be regent while he’s gone, and Théoden calls her on her duty when she wants to stay and fight against the Wargs).****

4. Legolas being the less active party, and accepting Aragorn’s lead in this particular sitch. And since he does, generally, this was the easiest part. For him, including Éowyn is just another way of making Aragorn happy, or soothing his anxieties, anyway. Which may not say much about Legolas’ morals, either, but come on, shortly after this little interlude, he snaps with the “They’re all going to die!” so it’s not like they’re not all under some extreme pressure, you know?

5. Legolas and Aragorn both accepting their relationship (as posited in the fic, they are in a sexual one) as having no bearing on Aragorn’s relationship (broken up or not) with Arwen (and Legolas’ with Gimli, though that’s still in the future, so not really a problem), and probably Arwen (also a couple thousand years old and wise in the ways of Elves and Men) knowing and being okay about it.

6. All three of them being comfortable with the idea of sex-with-relative-strangers before battle, which is why I had the whole “bonds between men at war” business in there. Extreme situations lead to extreme behaviors.

So you can see, that’s quite a laundry list of suppositions (all of which I think I managed to use) for a PWP that isn’t even 2000 words long.

Coupled with the Reservations, I’m sure you can see why I had such a hard time with something that should have been fairly easy.

Huh.

I feel better having articulated all of this, and if anyone has actually stuck around and read til the end, well, you ain’t done yet.

There are footnotes.

::snicker::

*luckily, you've all been spared my Remus/Sirius/Mary Sue thoughts, and also some horrible Movie!Boromir/Book!Faramir/Mary Sue thoughts and M!B/B!F/Éowyn thoughts as well, not to mention the horrid Boromir’s-mourning-fiancée Mary Sue/Legolas that occupies my mind during my morning commute lately...

**Let’s forget about Éowyn’s virginity at this moment. Because well, all that riding surely ruptured her hymen, and well, see Éomer/Éowyn subtext. And that would have meant dealing with all sorts of other issues I was not prepared to deal with in a 1400 word PWP. It’s bad enough that it’s her first time *with Aragorn* [and Legolas]. I mean, I don’t know about you, but the rare times strange men have proposed threesomes to me on first meeting or thereabouts, I generally walk away and fast. So, realism is just out the door, okay?

***And I’m sparing you the tangential musings on Legolas’ social position as “Prince of Mirkwood” – which is for some reason completely glossed over in the movie, not that it means much in the books either - and also thoughts about how and whether he knew Glóin and Bilbo during the Hobbit, but I would like to mention that the Elves didn’t exactly cover themselves in glory when it came to keeping Gollum locked up, nor did they do a damned thing about the Necromancer in Dol Guldur, who turned out to be Sauron, gathering his forces, so Elrond really ought to keep his mouth shut about Men and their failings. Elves maybe the fairest and wisest but they still fall prey to pride and such. They’ve just had a lot longer to mull over the consequences and decide never to do it again. Reading The Silmarillion really gives you some perspective on the Elves and how they’re not just airy and perfect, though I still don’t like how inferior Men allegedly are.

****and I’ll spare you my rant about the women not being armed and put out to fight. Christ, they should have left the 10yo boys with the old women and armed the healthy women because you can never underestimate women defending their children. But no. Even after Éowyn’s pointed remark about dying by the sword. Though honestly, I first interpreted that as not that most of the women were trained to fight because they might have to defend themselves because even though they aren’t soldiers, they’re still going to be attacked in a war, but that they were no stranger to suicide in the face of A Fate Worse Than Death at the hands of their attackers. I don’t know if Tolkien subscribed to such a POV, or if I’m reading too much into it) afterward.

Lunch now.

~victoria



link

[current mood: thoughtful. also, cold]
[current music: running with the devil - van halen]
[random quote: i found the simple life wasn't simple when i jumped out on that road got no love, no love you call real, got nobody waiting]

~*~

01.23.03 - 12:55 a.m.

updates

I have updated the Remix...Redux participants list -- 62 people so far (including me).

There's still time to sign up, folks. You know you want to...

In other news, She Follows (the non-fruity elf porn, featuring a Legolas/Aragorn/Eowyn threesome) is up on the site.

~victoria



link

[current mood: frustrated]
[current music: the long and winding road]
[random quote: You want explanations I don't even understand If you need someone to blame Throw a rock in the air You'll hit someone]

~*~

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The painting is "Boreas" by John William Waterhouse. Again, not a muse, but I like her. She suits the color scheme.

The quote is from Sir Philip Sidney.

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