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05.09.03 - 2:24 p.m.

darkfic, plotty fic, con.crit all in one handy entry

Really random collection of comments and thoughts I've left in other people's LJs recently. I like to save them here (or there sometimes) so I have them as references when the posts are long gone and I can't remember what I said in whose LJ about which subject.

Mind like a steel sieve, remember.

So here are my various ramblings on darkfic, con.crit, and plot-driven v. character driven narrative:

darkfic

Thamiris wrote about the genre we call 'darkfic' - as in what is it, really and is it a useful label?.

I wrote:
I would have to agree with those who said that 'dark' is in the emotional state of the characters, not necessarily the content, though obviously content plays a role.

Incest, madness, rape, serious and damaging drug use, psychological as well as physical torture, post-apocalyptic (post-colonization in XF, or post-Mutant Registration in XMen) - these are hallmarks of 'dark' to me.

It's more than just romantic angst, though often these issues impede/complicate the romantic angle, but darkfic does not have to have a shippy angle (I offer you Benway's X-Manson as an example of the epitome of darkfic).

I mean, I could write Lex giving Clark a bath, and if Lex is evil and twisted and doing it to torture Clark and Clark is wounded and in pain because of it, it would be darkfic, as opposed to a happy, bubble-bath and rubber ducky splashing as foreplay fic.

Context is key.

I mean, mysteries have dead bodies turning up all the time, but most mysteries aren't what I would consider *dark*. So death/violence, the ever-popular 'mature themes' etc. aren't enough ot make a fic dark. The psychological/emotional atmosphere has to exude menace and pain.

Though darkfic can have a slightly hopeful ending. I dislike fic that *doesn't* have some sort of evidence that there may be light at the end of the tunnel, even if the ending is seriously sad (again, from XMM, I give you Save the Last Dance for Me, a story wherein double character death is actually a hopeful ending to a fic that is dark).

So Tham had two main questions in response:
But if it's an emotional state, doesn't it become problematic since you can have a drama that brings a character emotionally to the knees, close to suicide, but without the external, situational darkness that seems to be one possible hallmark of the genre?

and

does darkfic then require someone else to perpetrate the damage, not just a series of generally depressing events, a failed test here, a series of snubs there, etc, but a second charater who deliberately hurts the first in some consistent fashion?

And I wrote a whole essay in response, which LJ proceeded to eat. Fuckers.

Suffice it to say, I think that it's more than just content, but presentation of the material that counts. The author can control, at least to some degree, the response she evokes from a reader, so a lot rests on how she presents it. I wrote a fic where not much happens, but I consider it dark (Crave) - there is no hope that things will get better. Rogue and Logan are trapped in a cycle of guilt and enabling and blame and neither of them sees a way out, and both are inflicting damage on the other, deliberately at this point in Rogue's case. The story isn't meant to be taken as, "Oh how sweet, Rogue drinks too much and Logan cures her hangovers." It's meant to be taken as, "Rogue is a fucked up alcoholic who blames Logan for her condition and makes him suffer for it and he feels like its his fault so he sticks around and enables her, even though it's killing both of them." And in my choice of words and imagery, I hope that's conveyed.

To get back to the bathfic analogy, I can write a story where Lex and Clark have happy, soapy fun and that would be fluff or whatever the in vogue term is. I can write a story where Lex is bathing Clark's battered, bruised corpse after his final battle with the evil Kryptonians, and that would be angst - sad, regretful, but unless Lex is completely hopeless while he's doing it, it's probably not dark. However, if I write a story where Supervillain Lex captures Clark and holds him in a bathtub made of Kryptonite, and bathes him as a means of humiliation/torture, knowing that Clark's body will still respond to his touch even though they're not in love anymore, *that* has all the earmarks of darkfic, *if* it's presented in such a way that Clark is defeated and humiliated and psychologically scarred by the whole experience, rather than sitting there thinking, "Hmm... that feels good." or "Batman will be here to break me out in 10 minutes. I just have to hang on for 10 minutes" etc.

So yeah, I think there are three things really necessary to make something 'darkfic' - 'mature' content (rape, murder, suicide, torture, incest, addiction, prostitution etc.); presentation of that content *as* dark. (Chloe the Happy Hooker is not darkfic); and the lack of light at the end of the tunnel, or the characters' inability to see or reach the light that there is.

Sigh.

I really was much more eloquent and articulate the first time around. Stupid LJ.

plot

Minim Calibre asked about the seeming Holy Grail of Fanfic Writers: Plotty Fic:
Someone PLEASE explain plotty to me? WRT: fic? This Holy Grail of Writerly Things?

See, I've been thinking a lot about Plotty Writing, and what the devil defines it. Because it doesn't seem to be as clear cut as one would think.

My first response:
To me, 'plotty' definitely has the connotation of outside action. Not that the characters can't take journeys - the outside stuff really should shed light on the characters, but ... stuff happens. More than X thinks about Y, Y thinks about X, X and Y have some sort of emotional confrontation, X and Y fuck.

Hmm...

Plotty means that there's stuff outside the relationship that drives the action - casefile type stuff, MotW stuff - and that that action is what forces the characters into revealing themselves.

Plotty can also mean murder mystery or well-written romantic comedy (though the latter does focus more on the relationships and working them out).

That's my own personal definition. I have various stories in half-finished forms that deal with things like serial killers, the struggle for mutant rights, Logan being handed back to the goverment and having to be rescued - stuff like that is what I consider plotty - I have a hard time writng that kind of stuff, because I'm rather focused on the relationships.

They need not be mutually exclusive, but I find I've set them up as a dichotomy in my head.

Min responded:
The dichotomy [between ‘plotty’ and ‘character-driven’] is I think what's bugging me.

And so I said:
Sadly and unconsciously, I find I'm a very dichotic thinker, even though I know intellectually that most things are not either/or, I still find myself automatically setting them up that way and then having to work to get to an 'if/then' or an 'and' kind of place.

The richness of human experience is lost when it's not all explored, and I think part of my problems with some of the really "plotty" stuff that I see out there is that there's a certain coldness to it.

I think that coldness comes from a writer being 'plot-driven' rather than 'character-driven.'

Even the 'plotty' stuff I write is character-driven - I start out by thinking, for example, "How would the AI crew react to having to reenact Tamlane?" And it becomes a question of who would be stolen by the Faerie Queen, who would be the one who loved Angel the most, who would figure out that that's the plot they were replaying, etc., rather than, "Ooh, Tamlane. I want to rewrite that, what can I rejigger to fit it?"

Some writers begin with a plot - "outsiders with superhuman powers band together to fight evil of such and such a nature" - and then have to find characters they can manipulate to fit that plot. *That*, imo, is where the coldness comes from.

Plot, action, praxis, whatever term we're using today, *ought* to grow out of the characters.

[didactic]

To use a classic example of something that seems like nothing but plot, but isn't:

Agamemnon and Achilles' behavior drives the action of The Iliad - had Agamemnon not felt like his troops were losing respect for him after ten fruitless years of war, he wouldn't have stolen Briseis. Had he not stolen Briseis, Achilles would not have gotten all pissed off and decided to sit out the next few battles, thus giving the Trojans a respite from losing and some momentum. Had Patroclus not been the kind of man/warrior he was, he wouldn't have felt it necessary to go out and try to rally his side by dressing up like Achilles. And had he not dressed up like Achilles, it's entirely probable Hector wouldn't have killed him. His death drives Achilles into mad despair, and thus, to killing Hector.

All of that plot is really driven by those character interactions, going all the way back to the Judgement of Paris and Menelaus' repsonse to his wife's infidelity, Agamemnon's willingness to sacrifice his own daughter in order to go to war, etc. etc.

It's not like Homer sat around like some studio or network executive and said, "Hey! Wouldn't it be great if we had a story about a big long siege and they could all be killing each other, and then we'd have a really clever trick that brought the city down, like a Trojan Horse or something, and you know, I think this Achilles guy would be good for the starring role. I don't care about his motivations! This is how the story goes, and he better fit into it.

Which is what I think some plotty writers do - bend the characters to shape the action, rather than allowing the action to flow from the characters' behavior. [/didactic]

Huh. That got really wordy and didactic. Sorry.

Con.Crit

Carolyn Claire had an entry on sending constructive critisicm (or not).

In the comments, destina wrote:
I don't buy the argument that the only comments that should be sent to an author are the HHJJ kind.

Carolyn Claire replied:
I don't, either - if the author has said they're open to all feedback. If not, then I only send the HHJJ type. Too many people don't enjoy crit, and I don't want to send it if they don't want it.

I say:
But the thing is, how do we know?

Everyone, and I do mean *everyone* puts a little feedback thingy in their headers, ranging from "Yes, please" to "I'll die if you don't send feedback!!!"

And obviously the latter is someone to whom I would never send even positive fb, unless I was sure that plea was a joke or a parody.

But for a writer to *ask* for feedback without specifying "keep your ugly crit to yourself", how can anyone know that sending five positive comments and sticking one "Well, X didn't work for me because Y" in the middle is going to get a huffy response?

I mean, I've been around long enough that I can spot general types - the writers who are interested and the writers who aren't, but in assuming, well... you know what happens, right?

I think, if there's any changes to be made in labeling stories when they're posted, it ougnt't be to the warnings/ratings labels everyone's always bitching about, but to that little feedback line. People ought to be upfront about what they want - "Positive feedback only" or "Crit welcome" or whatever. (Though my own personal reaction to the former is 'shyeah' and I probably wouldn't send *anything*, I'd still rather know, rather than having to guess and getting singed in response because someone's feelings were hurt by what I would consider polite/helpful crit).

(She then responded to me, but I haven't gotten back there yet to answer.)

That was much easier than thinking up a whole new post about anything. *g*

Oh! Also, Bright Shiny Objects, your one-stop multi-fandom recs shop, has been updated.

Much good reading there, in many, many fandoms.

~victoria



link

[current mood: braindead]
[current music: 'cause there's a man down there, might be your man, I don't know...]
[random quote: If I speak at one constant volume, at one constant pitch, at one constant rhythm, right into your ear, you still won't hear]

~*~

05.08.03 - 3:06 p.m.

Recs Update - 5/8/03

Hey there cats and kittens, I've just updated the Unfit for Society Recs LJ

with 45 story recs (and 1 author rec) in 6 fandoms - Buffy, HP, LotR, XMM, Firefly and Heathers (yes. Heathers.).

Go. Read. Send love.

It's all here

Let me know if there are broken links, or you know, anything else that strikes your fancy.

I'm gonna go back to not-writing and trying to catch up on LJ comments and researching the ABC drugs, Rebif and Novantrone.

~victoria



link

[current mood: productive]
[current music: Refugee - Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers]
[random quote: Outside of a dog, a book is Man’s best friend. And inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. ~Groucho Marx]

~*~

05.08.03 - 10:05 a.m.

Geeky dream and BtVS S3 moments

So last night before WW (squee!), I took a nap.

Shut up.

Anyhow, I had this dream that I was watching Gilmore Girls. It was very intriguing. Luke was caught with his pants down - literally. He and a woman (lawyer-lady?) were on a "fishing trip," i.e., they were rolling around on the grass by a lake, when Lorelai stumbled upon them. Luke got all flustered and tried to put his pants on and jump into the cab of his pickup truck (does he even *have* a pickup truck? I don't think so.), and then all of a sudden I remembered it was Tuesday, and I should be watching Buffy.

So I changed the channel, but Buffy wasn't on anymore.

::sniff::

So herewith, a brief handful of Buffy Season 3 Favorite Moments in no particular order (Season 1 is here and Season 2 is here, fwiw):

  • The Clothes Fluke (yes, this is the most important, bestest moment of S3 for me)
  • Faith's arrival in FHT
  • Giles tricking the truth out of Buffy in FHT
  • "I kissed him, and I killed him"
  • Xander, Willow and Oz patrolling all summer in Buffy's absence
  • the return of Chanterelle/Lily/Anne
  • "I'm Buffy, the Vampire Slayer. And you are?"
  • That whole fight in Ken's hell dimension
  • Oz's hootenany/shindig speech
  • "As Willow goes, so goes my nation"
  • Scott Hope scoring with the Buster Keaton film festival (the only good thing that boy did)
  • "They should film that story and show it every Christmas"
  • "This is our year, I'm telling you. Best football season ever. I'm so in shape, I'm a rock. It's all about egg whites. If we can focus, keep discipline, and not have quite as many mysterious deaths, Sunnydale is gonna *rule*!"
  • which leads to LARRY! Larry as a slayerette in "The Wish"
  • “Okay. The entire world sucks because some dead ditz made a wish? I just, I just want it clear.”
  • The Vamp!Willow/Vamp!Xander/Cordy sandwich o'death
  • The Master snapping Buffy's neck in "The Wish"
  • Faith taking care of Scott Hope for Buffy in Homecoming
  • "She Knows" by Four Star Mary (my favorite song of theirs)
  • "Cor, the gun!... Cordelia, the spatula!"
  • "In the end, she's just a runner-up. *I'm* the Queen. What do you think *I'm* going to do to you?"
  • "Is your brain even connected to your mouth?" [...] "You crazy freak." "Vapid whore!" ::sniff:: I miss Queen C so very, very much.
  • The Kryptonite conversation in Helpless
  • "You in the back, by the dip" and then "You in the back, you will all be fish."
  • All of Lovers Walk, but specifically the famous Spike speech: "You're *not* friends. You'll never be friends. You'll be in love 'til it kills you both. You'll fight, and you'll shag, and you'll hate each other 'til it makes you quiver, but you'll never be friends. Love isn't brains, children, it's blood... blood screaming inside you to work its will... I may be love's bitch, but at least *I'm* man enough to admit it."
  • All of Revelations, but especially the X/W smoochies in the stacks and then the Faith/Buffy throwdown.
  • Willow using Barry White to try to seduce Oz.
  • Cordelia immediately dropping everything and driving Buffy home in Helpless. "Of course."
  • All the Giles/Joyce interaction in Band Candy.
  • Ethan!
  • "You died?!" "Just for a few seconds"
  • The inevitable spilling of the Giles/Joyce beans. "TWICE?" and then "If you're not too busy shagging my mother" and Giles walks into the tree. Hee!
  • the dancing to "Chinese Burn" in Bad Girls.
  • Want. Take. Have.
  • The entirety of "The Zeppo" but especially Xander's speech over the bomb, and then the little throwaway at the end by Oz, "Oddly full." Ew. But hee!
  • Vamp!Willow in DGL
  • The umbrella scene in "The Prom"
  • Cordy and Xander burying the hatchet in "The Prom"
  • Wesley and Giles in tuxes in "The Prom"
  • "For God's sake, man, she's eighteen. And you have the emotional maturity of a blueberry scone. Just have at it, would you, and stop fluttering about."
  • This conversation in "Gingerbread:"
    Xander: But... It's just that it's buggin' me, this 'cool' thing. I mean, what is it? How do you get it? Who doesn't have it? And who decides who doesn't have it? What is the essence of cool?
    Oz: Not sure.
    Xander: I mean, you yourself, Oz, are considered more or less cool. Why is that?
    Oz: Am I?
    Xander: Is it about the talking? You know, the way you tend to express yourself in short, noncommittal phrases?
    Oz: Could be.
  • The Mayor!
  • "You missed." "Meant to."
  • Cordelia having layers.
  • Faith's Klingon knife
  • Xander being right about the lunchlady in "Earshot"
  • "Yes, men like sports. Men watch the action movie. They eat of the beef and enjoy to look at the bosoms. A thousand years of avenging our wrongs, and that's all you've learned?"
  • Xander not going with Anya when she was getting out of Dodge.
  • Larry and Jonathan helping out with the Mayor at "Graduation"
  • The shared Slayer Dream
  • The Buffy/Faith fight in GD1
  • "Fire bad, tree pretty."

And I think that covers a lot of it.

Wow. I'd forgotten how great S3 was.

And lastly, Always Something In Between is up on the site.

~victoria



link

[current mood: geeky and sad]
[current music: Against the Wind - Bob Seger]
[random quote: “Hey! Did you get permission to eat the hostage? I don't think so!\" Willow, BtVS]

~*~

05.07.03 - 6:10 p.m.

Always Something In Between

Always Something In Between is up in the LJ.

Remus Lupin finally falls in love.

Sort of.

Go. Read. Feed me.

I'ma go home now and take a nap.

~victoria



link

[current mood: creative]
[current music: Hotel California - Eagles]
[random quote: I'm an old man. I'm a bitter man. And I think there is something wrong with my spleen.]

~*~

05.07.03 - 1:42 p.m.

Good Linkage

Ten Reasons I Won't Read Your Fanfic.

Yes, I really am that anal.

I'm enjoying watching the Top 5 Characters You Better Not Fuck With, Unless You're Trying to Piss Me Off thing start to proliferate on my friends list.

That post also has major Smallville and BtVS spoilers from last night, so don't click if you don't want to know.

My Top Five are:

Xander Harris
Rogue
Faramir (book only)
Remus Lupin
Ron Weasley and Bobby Drake (a tie)

And then, I remembered in chat - Dan Rydell.

::huggles Danny::

I also said Eowyn when I first posted this here yesterday, but when compared with my sweet, snarky, sidekicky boys, she tumbles down the list. Chloe also, is sort of in that 9-10 slot.

I wonder what it says about me that Ron Weasley and Bobby Drake and Xander Harris are on my list. Even Faramir and Remus, though not comedians, are second bananas (alpha male issues notwithstanding as far as Remus goes. I'd like to know more from canon about how much the wolf is with him. He's a second banana to Sirius because he wants to be, not because he's not strong enough to be on top. He wants to escape notice, to fade into the background, and so while I have no doubt that James and Sirius were the ringleaders - we're told that specifically in canon - I also have no doubt that Remus was the one who reined them in and did so easily, and his ability to do so is only matched by Lily when she and James get serious. And good lord, am I easily distracted with thoughts of Remus.)

Which reminds me - torch has an interesting post about "Who's on top" in slash, and does it matter, and if it does, why?

And elynross has a great post about how fans argue, that also dips a little into the Grey Day controversy and the differing conceptions of what is theft and what is okay fannish appropriation, from both the PTB and other fans.

Carolyn Claire has a post on feedback and offering crit that I found interesting, as well.

I am *all about* good linkage today, baby.

Now I will get back to editing Always Something In Between and staring at Nothing Like the Sun, wondering why I'm not editing that.

~victoria



link

[current mood: helpful]
[current music: Maggie May - Rod Stewart]
[random quote: \"I laugh in the face of danger. Then I hide until it goes away.\" -- Xander Harris, BtVS]

~*~

05.06.03 - 4:03 p.m.

I'm in love with a werewolf

I am far too attached to Remus Lupin.

It never ceases to amaze me, when I suddenly and for no reason become obsessed with a character I like.

I mean, it's one thing when they go from being a kid to a grown up (see Ramses Emerson), but usually it strikes out of the blue (or in some cases ::coughLegolascough:: is revived by a really hot actor playing the part when a movie of the book is made, which, sadly, is not going to happen with Remus).

Admittedly, it doesn't only happen with characters, but musicians and athletes and occasionally, actors, as well.

But the reason I'm noticing it's Remus in particular and not just the Remus/Sirius pairing (which I love, btw, in case you hadn't figured it out yet), is because I'm reading quite a bit of gen fic focusing on Remus or on the reasons why Sirius thought Remus was the spy and...

I keep going all "Crush. Kill. Destroy." every time Peter starts insinuating to James or Sirius that Remus is untrustworthy or when he hurts Remus by hinting that they don't trust him.

Grrr...

It's like my feelings about Xander - hurting Xander is just unacceptable in my worldview. Do you know how long it took me to get over Faith's behavior in Consequences? I don't care what she does to Buffy (or Angel, Willow or even Wesley) but if she fucks Xander over again, she has to die.

So I'm reading this fic here (Cave Canem by JKLB, for those who are interested - not slash, sadly, but SB/RL friendship is heavily featured and it's about how Peter went evil and why Sirius thought Remus was the spy - well written, I choose to see the subtext, and though it's unfinished, it seems to at least come to a decent stopping point - well, so far none of the chapters have been cliff-hangery, so I'm hoping the last one posted isn't, or I might just have to gouge my eyes out with a spork as punishment for breaking my "No WIPs" rule), and Peter is working his wormy little wiles and telling Remus lies and grrr....

I can't even articulate. I'm sitting at my desk here, growling subvocally at the screen.

This generally only happens when Logan is being an uber-dick to Rogue (usually by pursuing Jean).

So I'm thinking Remus is on the list now with Xander and Rogue and Eowyn (and book!Faramir) of people with whom one should not fuck if one doesn't wish to have me royally pissed off at them.

::snicker::

I am also trying to keep my bile about the sudden popularity of XMM from spilling over.

Sigh.

I'll be in that corner over there, petting the werewolf and trying to get his stupid, dense best friend to realize that they're Meant For Each Other.

Over in the LJ, summaries of my fic, if written by the typical FF.net author.

~victoria



link

[current mood: sleepy]
[current music: Have You Ever Seen the Rain - CCR]
[random quote: \"Me - I'm unreliable. I've got these evil hand issues.\" Lindsey McDonald, Angel]

~*~

05.05.03 - 12:31 p.m.

Vague anxiety over fic

Rambling about the christening and also Alias thoughts, up in the LJ.

So the other day I read a fic that... hmmm... I just didn't get it.

I mean, the writing was really good at evoking ambiance - there was good tension in the present day scenes and a heavy overlay of nostalgia and ... something that I'm not quite able to characterize in the flashbacks.

The sex was kinda hot.

The characterizations... didn't mesh with my views of the characters, but I was willing to go for the ride. I wonder if this is why I didn't get the story, or if it's just that the flashbacks were so... ambiguous that they didn't throw light on the relationship in the present tense.

The story didn't seem to make sense. I couldn't make the connection between the past and present version of the characters, or of what the author showed us of the characters, in order to make sense of the story in the narrative present.

Does that make sense?

It's like, there was a lot of stuff going on that never made it from the author's head to the page, so I didn't understand why the characters were behaving the way they did, and even some lovely writing (as in, the way the words were strung together) isn't enough for me to go back and reread and see if I can make the connections the author obviously wants me to make, but imo hasn't given me enough to work with in order to make them.

In other news, I'm working on a fic that may... grr...

It's frustrating.

It's an idea that's grabbed hold and won't let go, and I don't know if it's workable, if I'm skilled enough to pull it off the way I see it in my head. I think the POV I chose is the one necessary to the story, but it just... it precludes getting into the head of the third character in the triangle, and part of me thinks that it's her reaction that will determine the way the story goes. And I can't decide, really, *what* her reaction should be, when acquiescence should become recalcitance and then anger, or if the acquiescence is altogether wrong and anger is the right response all along.

I mean, anger is the right response. The question is, I don't know if she sees that, or if she's just as oblivious at first as he is, and that the third party in the triangle is the only one who sees what's going on. But that POV isn't necessary, because I want the reader to be piecing it together and part of me thinks that her POV would be best for that, but then again, I think I've dropped enough clues that the reader ought to be able to pick it up, long before the first two characters do.

And this is all very vague and rambly, isn't it? Huh.

Ah well, I've emailed Bethy and DD and asked for advice, because I think it could work, but it could also go horribly wrong, and if it's the latter, I don't really want to expose it to the world.

~victoria



link



[current mood: anxious]
[current music: Oye Como Va - Santana]
[random quote: 99% of the people in this world are fools – and the rest of us are in great danger of contagion.]

~*~

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The painting is "Boreas" by John William Waterhouse. Again, not a muse, but I like her. She suits the color scheme.

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